Post by Sach-Crabministrator on Jun 16, 2013 23:24:55 GMT -5
(copied from a different thread)
You should really, really look into an aquarium-grade water dechlorinator. Distilled water often contains copper (the distillation process uses a copper matrix and the distillate is run through copper pipes, where it sometimes sits before packaging). Copper is necessarily for hermit crabs, but much like iron in humans, it becomes toxic very quickly. There are also some controversial issues about the safety of storing and drinking distilled water.
Another issue is that water filters do not filter out all of the chlorine and/or ammonia used to treat the water. Carbon filters also do nothing for heavy metals.
The API is a bit pricey (one bottle is about $6-$7) but I have used the same bottle for over 3 years (it also has a long shelf life) so that makes it WAY cheaper than other treatment methods; including distilled.Yeah, it seems like people are divided right down the middle regarding distilled water! A strange topic indeed to have controversy over, don't you think?
The reason I bring it up is because one of my general chemistry classes had us do an experiment where we basically just distilled water for an hour and a half and then tested to see how "pure" it actually was (hint: it wasn't, even with pristine glassware). The distillation process requires some kind of matrix for water droplets to form, and you need a plug so your vapor doesn't just pass the distillation tube and leak out. It's almost universal to use copper for this process, which is one area where copper contaminants can get into distilled water.
What makes me nervous is the way copper can affect the hermit crabs. Hermit crabs use copper in their blood (hemolymph) as their oxygen carrier. So the way that humans use iron, hermit crabs use copper. Problem is, hermit crabs do NOT have any way to excrete or metabolize extra copper (same thing that humans face), so too much will slowly build up in their bodies over time and lead to copper toxicity.
I hesitate to say that hermit crabs drinking copper-impregnated water is kind of like humans doing the same, only with iron. Can it harm them? Maybe. A hermit crab fed a proper diet should get all of the copper it needs from said diet (and marine grade saltwater mixes).
I guess distilled water is one of those things that we should make people aware of the potential problems and let them decide for themselves. Iron poisoning is a very real, very serious problem in people, and we should treat copper poisoning in hermit crab with the same respect. There's no evidence either way to say distilled water is harmful or harmless. Personally, I will continue to use a heavy metal/chlorine/chloramine remover and feed my hermit crabs a varied diet.
Do you know of somewhere I can read more about this? The stuff I was looking at from Suebee (are you familiar?) says the total opposite, lmso
Here is her stuff on copper; thoughts? (maybe we could put it in a thread in food?
I think the link you posted is a bit of an oversimplification. I don't want to be unclear, copper is a vital and 100% necessary nutrient for our hermit crabs! Without it, they will become deficient, exhibit symptoms similar to those of anemia in humans, and ultimately die by suffocation.
That said, high levels of copper are also very dangerous. Hermit crabs' bodies do not have a specific hormone or organ that recognizes when they have too much copper, so there isn't a system in place to excrete it and keep only what they need. Copper is lost in invertebrates in the same way humans lose iron-- through feces, sweat, and of course, bleeding. That happens naturally as blood cells (or hemocyanins in hermit crabs) are broken down and excreted.
I think the best way to understand this issue is to relate it to iron in humans. We walk a fine line with our iron intake. We try to get enough through our diet or supplements. Over time, though, if we take in too much iron (not enough to cause toxicity at the very moment of ingestion, but enough that our body has too much extra), it can build up and cause acute symptoms. Overnutrition is the word here. Humans are fairly protected from iron overdose due to very strict rules about how much iron is allowed in a supplement, so we don't see iron poisoning very often today. Likewise, humans only lose about 1 mg of iron per day-- so when we say "trace element," we mean "trace"!! (source)
However, we don't know what the required daily allowance is for copper in our hermit crabs. Much like iron in humans, copper is considered a trace element. They need it, but they don't need a lot of it per day. Too much per day can accumulate in their bodies and cause acute symptoms. Maybe streaking is one of them? I'm not entirely sure. :/
I think SueBee oversimplified the facts a little bit. Of course our hermit crabs need copper! Please, please don't starve your crabbies of this essential trace element!! However, don't dump a ton of it in their food, either.
Sach, you always say that hermit crabs will eat what they need most at that particular phase of their intermolt. By that logic, if our crabbies were copper deficient, I think they would head to the salt water bowl, the most available source of copper in our tanks, and gorge. (That said... hmm, maybe a new thing to look into regarding Aussies, who are sometimes said to gorge on salt water?!)
I like that SueBee pointed out how vital copper is, but she failed to mention the negatives. Some of this misunderstanding is also just bad chemistry. I'm talking about elemental copper Cu(I), which is ONLY the copper atom in the oxidation state that can be used in hermit crabs' blood. Basically, the "I" stands for one positive charge on the atom. It is ONLY when the copper atom has one positive charge can it be used to carry oxygen. (Oxygen totally digs positive charges. Two Cu(I) are used to carry one oxygen.)
So that means things like copper sulfate, copper iodate, and even elemental copper Cu(II) or Cu(III) can be dangerous for hermit crabs for the same reason-- it's not in a usable form. Also, according to the research that I've been doing while writing this, those are generally the problem molecules/atoms encountered with distilled water, not an increase in usable elemental copper as I previously thought. (Though elemental copper is still present.) Do note, however, that some of these copper compounds ARE converted to Cu(I) and contribute to an overall intake of usable copper.
Those are my thoughts. I hope that made sense... I feel like I was all over the place!
Jun 16, 2013 15:31:44 GMT -5 @squamsquat said:
...........I want to make a quick comment about the water you use.You should really, really look into an aquarium-grade water dechlorinator. Distilled water often contains copper (the distillation process uses a copper matrix and the distillate is run through copper pipes, where it sometimes sits before packaging). Copper is necessarily for hermit crabs, but much like iron in humans, it becomes toxic very quickly. There are also some controversial issues about the safety of storing and drinking distilled water.
Another issue is that water filters do not filter out all of the chlorine and/or ammonia used to treat the water. Carbon filters also do nothing for heavy metals.
Jun 16, 2013 20:47:01 GMT -5 @squamsquat said:
It's interesting that you bring this up @squamsquat, I was just reading something today about copper & also about distilled water. I normally use API tap water conditioner, but I have also used distilled. I think the issue with copper is more along the lines of stuff containing copper sulfates, but I may have to research more but yeah the filtration systems may not be removing all that it needs to for hermie safety.
The API is a bit pricey (one bottle is about $6-$7) but I have used the same bottle for over 3 years (it also has a long shelf life) so that makes it WAY cheaper than other treatment methods; including distilled.
The reason I bring it up is because one of my general chemistry classes had us do an experiment where we basically just distilled water for an hour and a half and then tested to see how "pure" it actually was (hint: it wasn't, even with pristine glassware). The distillation process requires some kind of matrix for water droplets to form, and you need a plug so your vapor doesn't just pass the distillation tube and leak out. It's almost universal to use copper for this process, which is one area where copper contaminants can get into distilled water.
What makes me nervous is the way copper can affect the hermit crabs. Hermit crabs use copper in their blood (hemolymph) as their oxygen carrier. So the way that humans use iron, hermit crabs use copper. Problem is, hermit crabs do NOT have any way to excrete or metabolize extra copper (same thing that humans face), so too much will slowly build up in their bodies over time and lead to copper toxicity.
I hesitate to say that hermit crabs drinking copper-impregnated water is kind of like humans doing the same, only with iron. Can it harm them? Maybe. A hermit crab fed a proper diet should get all of the copper it needs from said diet (and marine grade saltwater mixes).
I guess distilled water is one of those things that we should make people aware of the potential problems and let them decide for themselves. Iron poisoning is a very real, very serious problem in people, and we should treat copper poisoning in hermit crab with the same respect. There's no evidence either way to say distilled water is harmful or harmless. Personally, I will continue to use a heavy metal/chlorine/chloramine remover and feed my hermit crabs a varied diet.
Jun 16, 2013 20:55:06 GMT -5 @squamsquat said:
Just want to add (for clarity) that the concern in my above post is because things like copper poisoning don't happen overnight. It's okay for a human to take a substantial iron supplement (in fact I know some females that need to when they menstruate) once in a while but a healthy individual does not and should not dose themselves with an iron bolus every day. I've noticed recently a lot of streaking crabs have had distilled water included in their diet while the rest of the care they receive should not cause them to streak. If there is a correlation, maybe we should look at it a bit more closely-- or at least keep it in mind.Jun 16, 2013 20:47:01 GMT -5 @squamsquat said:
What makes me nervous is the way copper can affect the hermit crabs. Hermit crabs use copper in their blood (hemolymph) as their oxygen carrier. So the way that humans use iron, hermit crabs use copper. Problem is, hermit crabs do NOT have any way to excrete or metabolize extra copper (same thing that humans face), so too much will slowly build up in their bodies over time and lead to copper toxicity.Do you know of somewhere I can read more about this? The stuff I was looking at from Suebee (are you familiar?) says the total opposite, lmso
Here is her stuff on copper; thoughts? (maybe we could put it in a thread in food?
Jun 16, 2013 21:46:13 GMT -5 @squamsquat said:
Sach, most of my knowledge comes from a class I took that focused on the lives of invertebrates (it was kept to mainly phylum Arthropoda). I don't have many scholarly articles about this issue bookmarked, and I will have to get back to you on peer-reviewed papers that support this (I'm currently behind the paywall until my alum status goes through for my undergrad university... grr!)I think the link you posted is a bit of an oversimplification. I don't want to be unclear, copper is a vital and 100% necessary nutrient for our hermit crabs! Without it, they will become deficient, exhibit symptoms similar to those of anemia in humans, and ultimately die by suffocation.
That said, high levels of copper are also very dangerous. Hermit crabs' bodies do not have a specific hormone or organ that recognizes when they have too much copper, so there isn't a system in place to excrete it and keep only what they need. Copper is lost in invertebrates in the same way humans lose iron-- through feces, sweat, and of course, bleeding. That happens naturally as blood cells (or hemocyanins in hermit crabs) are broken down and excreted.
I think the best way to understand this issue is to relate it to iron in humans. We walk a fine line with our iron intake. We try to get enough through our diet or supplements. Over time, though, if we take in too much iron (not enough to cause toxicity at the very moment of ingestion, but enough that our body has too much extra), it can build up and cause acute symptoms. Overnutrition is the word here. Humans are fairly protected from iron overdose due to very strict rules about how much iron is allowed in a supplement, so we don't see iron poisoning very often today. Likewise, humans only lose about 1 mg of iron per day-- so when we say "trace element," we mean "trace"!! (source)
However, we don't know what the required daily allowance is for copper in our hermit crabs. Much like iron in humans, copper is considered a trace element. They need it, but they don't need a lot of it per day. Too much per day can accumulate in their bodies and cause acute symptoms. Maybe streaking is one of them? I'm not entirely sure. :/
I think SueBee oversimplified the facts a little bit. Of course our hermit crabs need copper! Please, please don't starve your crabbies of this essential trace element!! However, don't dump a ton of it in their food, either.
Sach, you always say that hermit crabs will eat what they need most at that particular phase of their intermolt. By that logic, if our crabbies were copper deficient, I think they would head to the salt water bowl, the most available source of copper in our tanks, and gorge. (That said... hmm, maybe a new thing to look into regarding Aussies, who are sometimes said to gorge on salt water?!)
I like that SueBee pointed out how vital copper is, but she failed to mention the negatives. Some of this misunderstanding is also just bad chemistry. I'm talking about elemental copper Cu(I), which is ONLY the copper atom in the oxidation state that can be used in hermit crabs' blood. Basically, the "I" stands for one positive charge on the atom. It is ONLY when the copper atom has one positive charge can it be used to carry oxygen. (Oxygen totally digs positive charges. Two Cu(I) are used to carry one oxygen.)
So that means things like copper sulfate, copper iodate, and even elemental copper Cu(II) or Cu(III) can be dangerous for hermit crabs for the same reason-- it's not in a usable form. Also, according to the research that I've been doing while writing this, those are generally the problem molecules/atoms encountered with distilled water, not an increase in usable elemental copper as I previously thought. (Though elemental copper is still present.) Do note, however, that some of these copper compounds ARE converted to Cu(I) and contribute to an overall intake of usable copper.
Those are my thoughts. I hope that made sense... I feel like I was all over the place!